reach o'grady and heidi e. wing discuss their film. journal" is next. host: the research shows that of of american show -- americans believe the immigration should cut off military aid. we want to get your thoughts on this. republicans -- send us a tweet @cspanwj.

you can also e-mail us, journal@c-span.org. we will begin with josh rogan who broke the story. he is our senior correspondent on the phone. is headline in your piece the obama administration secretly suspended military aid to egypt. how did you find this out? the primary source was senator patrick leahy, he is the chairman of the state and foreign appropriations subcommittee. i asked a lot of people what was going on with this $1.3 billion of u.s. military aid to egypt. their understanding was that it had been halted. i investigated a little bit further and what i found was that the administration's review of military aid is ongoing. they are going through a broad

review of the entire u.s. egypt relationship. they decided not to disburse most forms of the military aid, with some exceptions this was a -- with some to exceptions. despite the fact that the administration is determined that -- if that sounds at the mouthful, it is because it is. where's the money in the process? and what impact will it have? administration public line, the are using the term "suspended." no final decisions have been made. that is true, no final decisions have been made. time, senator leahy told several administration while that review is

going on it has been suspended. we are talking about 13 -- $1.3 million, five hundred $85 million has not been delivered. it is due by the end of the fiscal year, september 30. that is foreign military finance money that is not flowing. most people inside the system see that as an aid suspension. the administration will say it is not suspended, we are just not giving it out. -- to senatory he leahy --enator we are talking about economic support. there is a lot of type of economic support funds. the ones that will go directly to egypt and government are not being programmed and dispersed. they are being suspended.

meanwhile, a couple of items are still flowing, spare parts, some economic support funds, american ngos and the company -- in a country. host: does that mean that the has effectively defined this as a to? -- as a coup? --st: the best quote i was quote i got was, we decided that this should be treated like a coup but we will not say it is a coup. if they were to, the law would kick in and that would place even more restrictions on them, restrictions they do not want to deal with, restrictions they do not want to have to answer to if they want to restore the aid at

some point in the future. they're basically trying to have their cake and eat it too. what they are trying to do is say, "we are on the safe side by a saying it is not a coup." they are trying to preserve the flexibility on implementing the foreign-policy. at the same time they're trying to protect their credibility in egypt. it is a very delicate balancing act that most people inside the system to not think they're striking quite perfectly. host: who are the critics and what are they saying you go guest: -- what are they saying? guest: the main critic is senator leahy. he put forward a law that is supposed to stop the menstruation from funding the military's and -- the militaries

engaged in human rights violations. this -- what the military is doing in the streets of egypt is not something we want to support. or our critics in congress but also in the human rights community and inside the administration. there are a lot of people who feel very bad about what is going on in egypt and believe it should be suspended because we do not want to have the blood of the egyptian people on our hands but also because his could be used as a piece of leverage, a piece of pressure to get you magician military -- to get the egyptian military to stop its policy of arresting islamists and killing protesters on the street. what role would congress play in this, if any? candy the

administration do this without construing -- without consulting congress? the problem is congress has not been passing appropriation bills for quite some time now. they are not very effective in coalescing on any policy in congress. the administration believe they can do this in congress will not have its act together. congress is on vacation for another couple of weeks. what we have seen in the last couple of years as many people in congress are talking about marco rubio, john mccain -- they have all of these ideas of how to add restrictions. this not a new think and this has been going on since 2011, if not sooner. the problem is they cannot agree. has a national security waiver they have used time and time again to set aside congressional restrictions. at bottom line is foreign-policy

is the administration's prerogative. congress plays a role but not a key role. congress also plays the role of being a sounding board and airing pressures in the public face. end it is president obama's foreign-policy and he is going to do what he wants with it. what he wants to do right now is stop the flow of aid largely to egypt. it seems they do not have a policy that they are ready to commit to. this is why they are taking issue with this notion. they want to preserve the and not be accused of reversing themselves. host: it would appear that the polls might be on the side of the president. the pew research poll that was released yesterday show that 51% of americans think the united

states should not cut off military aid to egypt to put pressure on the government there. it is not a particularly popular thing. there's not a huge constituency for foreign aid. what i would say here is that most experts i talked to do not believe that cutting would be enough to pressure the egyptian government to change, as very -- as they are engaged in the nexus than to struggle for their own survival. -- in annex essential struggle for their own survival. -- an existential struggle for their own survival. on the other hand, there is the issue of united states

portability -- pulled the ability. ifhaps people believe that the u.s. were to take the steps publicly, we are taken them privately, but if they were to take them publicly in conjunction with other companies -- other countries it could -- we just do not know how much influence we have. it is probably not that much. the egyptian military just is not soon to be listening to us, especially at this point. josh rogan with newsweek daily beast. though to the daily beast.com to follow him, and you can also follow him on twitter. we appreciate your time. we turn to all a few to get your take on all of this, what do you think? the phone lines --

here are some more numbers from .he research poll 50% believe obama has not been tough enough on the egyptian military. below that, who would provide better leadership for egypt? the military. 11% said the muslim brotherhood would provide better leadership for egypt. neither. to the five percent do not know. what is your take on this? temporarilys suspending all military aid to egypt. josh rogan reporting on it, as well as other news outlets this morning. let us hear from lawrenson washington d.c., oh ahead. -- lawrence in washington dc. i feel that after

supporting the military dictatorship for 30 years, the united states is continuing to give aid to the military. i think many americans misunderstand what the muslim brotherhood is about, they have the mistaken notion it is a terrorist organization. morsi was democratically elected. it was a coup, they did the same thing in honduras. i think it is a sad situation. i am definitely part of that 51%. host: on facebook, here are some thoughts for you -- if you want to post your comments, go to our page. marcel in columbia, south carolina, a republican caller. i am an egyptian

american citizen. i have not been in egypt for 10 years. i listen to all the tv and everything. i am a christian. if president obama wants to suspend the aid, that is fine. [indiscernible] on egypt needs is -- egypt originally given to since the 1970s. the egyptian was that egypt keeps the treaty.

-- the condition was that egypt keeps the treaty. i think it would be fine with egyptians. a two.ot -- a coup. 50 3 million people went to the street. muslim batch are muslim brotherhood -- the muslim brotherhood has been burning churches. on that point, "the los angeles times this morning has the story. they report this --

have you talked to friends in egypt and can he speak to this a little bit? i am talking to my friends. i have my facebook. the main mistake of saying this is a coup. it is not a coup. we are going to have an election .ver there the law everything. they just need some time.

right now all the muslim -- they have just call --5 innocent would innocent -- host: do you support what the military is doing in egypt? caller: yes, i am. [indiscernible] host: i am going to leave it there. a tweet --

yesterday, defense secretary was asked about chuck hagel -- chuck hagel was asked about this. here's his response. there is not a consistent view on capitol hill on this issue. more to the point, we have andous interests in egypt that part of the world. this is a very complicated problem. we continue to work with all the parties to try to help as much as we can. our ability to influence an outcome in egypt is relevant. it is up to the egyptian people.

they are a large, great, sovereign nation. it will be their responsibility to sort this out. chuck hagel when asked about egyptian aid. the front page of "the miami herald" this morning -- and then the front page of "the washington post" --

that story in "the washington post" and next to that -- temporary suspending most military aid to egypt, here is a . this from joseph ramirez -- mike from vermont, republican caller, what do you think? caller: thank you for having me

on your show. i think egypt has been a steadfast ally for 30 plus years . i think we should continue the eighth. wouldk the united states have much more influence in the long term if we continued the aid. mr. putin might step right in on it. i think the united states needs , even thoughllies it is difficult at times. that seems to be a leadership issue in that regard. host: can i get your response to

stephen simon? he writes today in "the new york times," -- caller: we are not trying to buy democracy. i watched the ambassador from egypt speaking on the television. is aid that we give egypt more of a contract that we have in providing stability to the whole middle east. an importantis issue. we are not trying to buy democracy. we did not try to do that for 30 years, right?

i think it is apples and oranges. as the ambassador from egypt give has to that we do with middle east stability as a whole, not just egypt. thank you for the call. -- moses injersey new jersey, what do you think? caller: i think we're caught between a rock and a hard place. egyptians hadhe an election. they wanted democracy. ,f they really want a democracy why not let it does run its course, have another election, and voted the people out here go the way they are going about it

they are not going to have a democracy because every time their military does not agree with somebody, they have a coup. is up to the egyptians themselves. it is really sad. if they really want a democracy, let it run its course. obama,don't agree with but we have our elections. that is the way democracy works. host: let the violence run its course,- let it run its the violence. you think i secretly suspending military aid the obama administration has picked a side? that is, the side going against the military to current leadership? caller: i think he had to do that. you cannot stand by and see all that going on.

i think he is doing the right thing. host: the new york times editorial pages weighing in this morning.

that is the editorial page weighing in on the president, whether or not he should suspend military aid. reported that the administration has secretly and suspended military aid. this column in "the wall street journal" --

"washington post" and "the new york times" both critical. randy is coming in, go ahead. we have to pull back and take care of our own country. if you follow the history, the united states worked the deal with israel to attack the united states -- to attack the uss liberty and they were going to blame it on egypt. host: what history are you citing? caller: if you google the uss liberty, it was a surveillance ship that was attacked by israeli warplanes because the united states wanted an excuse to go to war with egypt. this was 30 years ago. host: what website are you going to for that? caller: you can google it. they have pictures of the ship and whatever.

as far as the vietnam war, too much money is being spent and we are not making friends in the world no matter what we do. in pennsylvania, independent caller. the reason we give aid to egypt and israel primarily is we give them the $3 billion per so they can buy weapons from the united states. that is where the tear gas comes from that is used on the people, the white phosphorus that is used. it is cluster bombs, all sorts of things. that is why we give aid, so we spending our military

-- or our arms trade. this is not democracy. we been doing this for 30 years. they do not have democracy. host: should we cut off the military aid, given what you just said? caller: yes. and obama should quit lying about it. he is stuck and he is afraid to come out and say "this is why we give aid." we are going to take your phone calls, the united states military -- the united states kimberly suspending military aid. in an international panel of scientists --

that is in "the new york times" this morning. president obama, pressing regulators on financial rules. it says in this story in "the wall street journal" --

on the economy, "the washington times" reporting -- this in a money section of "usa today" --

back to our phone calls, ahmed in miami, florida, what are your thoughts on the united states temporarily suspending military aid? caller: i am an american egyptian and i spent a year and a half in egypt. i came back to the states on july 4. i saw what the brotherhood had done to the country. there were very extremist and

prejudiced people against all christians. the market collapsed. i was trying to find a gas for my car, you go around for hours and sometimes for days. i saw businesses shutting down day and night. the egyptian currency went down the drain, went down by about 50%. the country became very unsafe to travel and move around. this is the picture i saw in the year i lived in egypt. this was during the ruling of the brotherhood. veils.nted women to wear they went to extremes, something that egypt has an experienced at all in 5000 years.

egyptianion is, the pop elation is for the ro -- needs to go with the army to save the nation from a civil war. all the people around the region want to back up the army. want to god the u.s. in the opposite direction? it is not about democracy. they were not elected in a very democratic way. i can go into great details, there are a million? some the election. host: do you view the it ministration's move here to temporarily and quietly suspend military aid, do you view it as going against the egyptian public? caller: i think it is going against it because the u.s. has invested interest in egypt. they will be replaced very easily. article,t about the

quoting one military analyst who says it would be very difficult for egypt to be able to sustain and pay for the military assets it has right now if it does not get this, and run the military weapons they have, without aid from the united states. caller: this is where he goes wrong. this is his own perspective. i am an american egyptian. i know egypt very well. i know america very well. why would the u.s. want to take a stand the echo why would they want to support the brotherhood? host: we will go to cedar town, georgia. eric is next. democratic caller. i want to respond to the last guy. most of these guys to come over here from egypt, they will not fight for democracy in their own

country. they always come to the united states and other countries and refer back to their country. they need to make that decision in their own country and help their own country. all the money we give israel and egypt, we knew it must stopped. we are in deficit spending. it should be ratified by congress. israel is one of the richest countries in the world. i would like to say this, if you really look back at the history, what is going on with this money is it is part of the -- egypt is not in war with anyone, same with israel. what are they using these weapons for? that is the bottom line. this andant to get quickly for all of you, "the washington times" front page this morning --

that and the story in "washington times" above that --

sticking to the healthcare law, the front page of "usa today close quote -- "usa today" -- "the financial times" reporting this --

a topic that is being discussed at many townhall meetings in august. we are covering some of those, so if you go to our website and our video library, you can find some of the past town halls that we have been covering. also, front page of "the houston chronicle close quote this morning -- chronicle" this morning carolina's south newspaper, the state newspaper reporting --

maria from westville, new jersey, what are your thoughts ,n the administration delaying temporarily, this military aid to egypt? i feel we should audit every single bit of foreign aid, which in our case includes the commerce department and trade at grievance -- trade agreements. and the state department, with the treaties we are providing. also, of course, the federal reserve. i would encourage everybody to look up bursa. that is the british intelligence agreement. the british the ability to spy on american citizens.

it makes no sense, democratically, what we are doing. we are just betraying people in propping up the tatars. we have to go back to what our forefathers told us and have no foreign entanglements. until we do that we will never have peace or prosperity for our citizens. host: mike from kentucky, independent caller. i am just wondering how they can be against the people thehe united states created overwhelming people do not want these monies cents to these countries to buy their influence. sent to these country to buy their influence. we are talking about stopping obamacare and everybody wants that. that is for all the people. but they send money to these people to buy their influence, and that influences to buy

and whatever canal reason it is. that point, daniel tweeps -- in other news on the domestic front, "the washington times" reporting -- below that, an oklahoma judge on monday block a state law -- also this morning from the nation section of "usa today" --

below that is a story about the aftermath of superstorm sandy. the task force lays out guidelines for spending $50 billion in hurricane relief. elected officials and private groups look the report. a little more than $9 billion of that money has been spent. that is from "usa today" this morning. finally, on this question of temporarily suspending military aid to egypt, i just want to let you know about this. from "the new york times" this morning --

that is something to watch on this question of military aid to egypt and what should be done next with that country and the violence is happening there. joining us on the phone is jeff schapiro, here's the politics columnist from "the richmond times dispatch." yesterday,n with attorneys for the governor and his wife met with federal prosecutors in an attempt to convince the authorities that they should not be investigated. investigated being for? how did we get to this point? [indiscernible] this is public corruption.

johnny williams is the head of the supplement company here in the richmond area. the company to strenuously denies there was a quid pro quo as required by the united states . thee is an ominous sign for governor and his wife, maureen. this all largely grew out of an investigation over a year ago at the executive mansion. the chef, the celebrity chef, was accused of stealing groceries from the kitchen. in his defense, or part of his defense, he has been fishing on the mcdonald's -- dishing on mcdonald's. he gave a $15,000 cash gift to

one of the mcdonald's daughter's to pay for the catering at her wedding. this has been accelerating since the end of march. ofthe closing months it isor mcdonnell's term, largely overshadowing what he is saying. host: yesterday he was talking about the budget situation in the state of virginia. the cover of the front page -- this being overshadowed by what is happening on the personal ?ront last week he spent almost every single day on the road. this is part of an annual effort by the governor to help take his office to the taxpayers.

by thisvershadowed investigation. there was a gubernatorial election underway, of course. it is one of two of the country this year. if to have been overshadowed by this controversy, in large part because the republican nominee for governor also has ties to mr. williams. he is taken out $18,000 of gifts from it. the attorney general's office was battling with mr. williams , nowny over a tax bill approaching $2 million. this is a constant in virginia politics. governor said the about this? why are he and his wife meeting separately? why do they have separate legal teams? what with the two of them say? the governor has private

lawyers as well as taxpayer supplied lawyers. the first lady has a private counsel as well. in a criminal proceeding there is no way under law that one could testify against the other. this is old-fashioned public corruption. to of the points that needs be made about mrs. mcdonald, she is not a public official. supply, or the governor has to supply, legal counsel for her. host: what did the two of them face? this is a federal law they have allegedly broken, not a virginia law. what do they say? user possibly criminal charges that can be brought

against the governor. there is a good deal of uncertainty about what might come from this. virginia has a long reputation of relatively clean politics. there was a member of the state legislature recently snagged and a federal corruption case. he is out serving nine years in a federal penitentiary. this is fairly high stakes and is very unusual for virginia. there are a number of points of law issued here that top that. there is legislation dealing possibly the tax laws and security laws. the least of his problems would be virginia's disclosure laws. that would be a misdemeanor under federal -- under state

law. it is the host: least of his difficulties. host:jeff schapiro, political columnist for "the richmond this -- for "the richmond times." up next we are going to be talking about finding consensus on immigration. they turned a former shell oil president will be joining us for discretion on the oil industry -- for a discussion on the oil industry. we will be right back. ♪ tonight, on c-span's encore presentation of first ladies. >> one of our most controversial collections is the white house china. it was controversial at the time, remains controversial to this day, because of the pattern of the china.

people at the time did not feel like this was appropriate formal china. even some of the journalists of the day worse -- of the day wrote scathing articles. one journalist said the art was absurd. and other said, who is going to want to eat this meal and chi and frog at the bottom of their plates? people thought this is not appropriate china to have added presidential dinner. lucy felt this was a way to educate visiting dignitaries from foreign countries, or maybe not familiar with the united states. >> the encore presentation continues tonight at nine eastern on c-span. during the program on lucy hayes, join the conversation with the head of the rutherford hayes center. >> "washington journal"

continues. host: we want to welcome back becky tallent. staffthe former chief of for senator john mccain from 2012 to 2013. immigration task force wrote in politico recently -- who are these folks and what are they saying? we put together an immigration task force since the start of last year. looking forward, knowing that we are still going to have a lot of work to do to get immigration reform done -- at the beginning of the year folks thought this was written in stone already and by august we would be having the president signing a bill into law. we were a little bit more wary of the process, looking at where

congress is right now and how difficult it is to get anything done. we brought this group of people together, who we consider thought leaders, political leaders obviously. people who have a lot of experience in the administration but also have a lot of practical experience. initially we put in the cochair to enlist condoleezza rice and governor barbour. each one of them offer a unique perspective on immigration reform. they also brought a consensus agreement that needed to be done. if you talk to each of them -- that was the whole point. especially bringing these politically diverse people together. we built the task force out from there. it also includes the cultured off, former congressman berman, former congressman chaddock.

it intentionally and politically leans a little right. we know ultimately that as we the biggestight now hurdles going to be in the house of representatives. that is also the biggest opportunity. i think the governor will tell you that while the bill is a step in the right direction, he thinks it will get her. it allows them to go through their full process and allow us to be fed a more. -- to be vetted more. we are now focused on it house and getting from there -- getting from here to there. host: where is the consensus, how does the differ from what the senate gang of eight put together? that duringelt august recess -- and we have

seen a little bit of this tom a friendly not as much as i am going to see, things are going to get a little heated during the town hall. it is not playing out like the obamacare debate did. of worry a little bit that maybe during the hot recess, the hot summer months of august recess that the tempers would flare. you have seen some protests, some marches on the offices in california. point being we thought it would be a good time for us to show that there is so much more agreement around these issues than disagreement. together a sampling of areas that this diverse group was able to reach a consensus on. i have the sense that this is not a complete framework for a complete copperheads of bill. if they put this out and everybody started asking, what about this. nothing was intentionally left out.

obviously the thing has gotten the most attention there is the call for a path to citizenship. i think it is important to say that individual should not be prevented from becoming citizens, which is important. they don't believe that is in the tradition of our country to prevent a specific group of people from ever completely fulfilling the american dream. the most important thing that is in there is that the task force came out for an independent entity to judge output measures at the border. the senate put a lot of input measures. there is no measure of output there. scientific measures to determine how well the borders being secured? caller: exactly. host: how do you go about doing that and why hasn't it been done?

caller: that is a good question. gao has done some work around this area. every agency is political now. it used to be that you could get them to sign off on something and that would be the end of the conversation. some pope -- some folks are wary. there is an issue in arizona about gao two checkpoints in the interior. some felt it wasn't a very evenhanded study. this was actually secretary chertoff's idea. take it out of the political realm completely. brand oragency like a somebody who has experience working with the government. to go and study what those metrics should be. we do not even know how to study the border right now. look at people apprehension rates. apprehension rates could mean a lot of things. either you are apprehending a lot of people.

apprehension rates does not mean people you're picking -- those are not a great measure. what else to use? how do you take it out of their hands and maybe have a committee that is appointed by different political entities, just like committees are done now. senate minority leader, senate majority leader, house speaker. decide those metrics, whether or not they are being met, and then publicly publish them. this is the most important thing, the public gets to see whether these metrics are being met and dated to hold their elected officials accountable. that is not being done right now. congress is getting a lot of

misinformation. it is not being disseminated to the people that are being effected throughout the order. and theyond this report four cochairs writing a piece in politico, what are they doing to make this happen? are they picking up the phone and talking to republican leaders? guest: that is an important part of this and it is something they're doing. the governors were speaking to the atlantic roguery last night. it might seem like a small thing but there were probably 200 to 300 business leaders who now have a better understanding of the situation that we face politically and practically and how they can affect the outcome. we are placing these in regional papers. there are some of movements out there specifically trying to

target members in their home district. that is not our goal. we can provide information to be persuasive, but we are not trying to embarrass anyone or call them out at a town hall, but we are trying to make a policy argument that this is good policy. as governor barbara always says , good policy makes good politics. " we are trying to say here is that there is good policy here and that for the good of the country and the economy, this is something we need to get done. host: we are speaking with for republicans, 202-585-3881. -- we are speaking with rebecca the bipartisan task force and finding consensus on this issue. we have divided the phone lines differently. if you support the idea of immigration reform, 202-583-380, 585-if you oppose it, 202-

382. here is abc news with this headline. ."o pathway the citizenship the political arm of the republican party says they do not think it is good politics to have a pact with the citizenship. and then you have one of williams' writing the opinion that republican leaders are pushing the door open for immigration deals, citing paul ryan of wisconsin in the gop 25 ryan of wisconsin that the house is willing to vote in 2012, "he is opening the door to republicans allowing their leadership to pass the bill with votes from democrats." guest: there are a couple of different strategies happening here.

they keep talking about it and congressman ryan a few weeks ago got into hot water talking at a town hall about a very clear outline that he indicated the house leadership was going to go through to get immigration reform done. what i do not understand and have not been able to figure out yet and have not heard anyone else do it either is how they -- the extreme right wing of the party is saying right now that they will not vote for anything because they do not want to go to conference with the senate. this is the same line taken by the heritage foundation with relation to the john cornyn amendment in the senate. to overly simplify it, it was going to make the bill more conservative with more border infrastructure, etc., and the heritage foundation voted against that amendment because they thought anything done to improve the bill would make it easier to pass the bill and they did not want to vote for it.

you are seeing that echoed in the house now with the folks voting in block with steve king saying or indicating, at least, that they will not want to vote for anything, even with -- tough for strict enforcement measures because it will enable leadership to go to conference and they think they will get jammed coming out of conference and basically they will not vote for a pathway the citizenship coming out of the house and the majority of the majority rules will go out the window and they will wind up with a pathway the citizenship based on votes from the house floor. so, if they are going to vote for anything, you cannot lose more than 20 or 30 votes for house republicans and get anything off the floor. playing this out, this scenario might happen in which they paired together some of these bills. one of the rumors i have heard is a caring together of the

kids act, the house republican act response to the dream act, paring those together and taking them to the floor and in that scenario you pick up some democratic votes. let's say that that gets off the floor, in theory you are now going to conference and you take up enforcement only bills and those republicans who said they would not vote for anything, if they hold the line and the bill is considered bad enough that the democrats will not vote for it, how do you pass any of those other pieces off the floor with the remaining republican votes? just counting them in my head, i do not see how you get from here to there. i do see a path to getting this combo bell of the house floor, i just do not know how you get the pocket of republicans to change their mind and then get the other pieces. host: there is a democratic component as well and this tweet

-- guest: there is some of that. the democrats here, in my personal opinion, are in a win- win situation. this thing gets done, you get immigration reform done, the obama administration and senate democrats are going to take huge victory laps on this, pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves and rightfully so in a lot of ways, but it is going to be very easy .o claim that this thing failed with a political win in election years, they say latino voters, you are our voters because we tried to get this done for you. it is a tough negotiating position for republicans

because democrats are ultimately in a win-win. they will ultimately have to deliver on immigration reform. president obama promised it during his first term and he did not deliver. he went with health care instead. the kind of grin and bear it through the last election cycle but at some point before obama leaves office he will have to deliver what it does not have to be this year. host of this tweet -- -- host: this tweet -- proposed immigration reform? caller: i have several points. first of all, i am upset with c- span because c-span has become the pro-illegal alien lobby. i do not see people from numbers are fair or other groups who oppose immigration. host: than you have not been watching, because we certainly have. do, every dayy, i

between 7 -- caller: actually, i do, every morning between 7:00 26:30. first of all, there is not real enforcement now. at the border we know that the obama administration has been manipulating the data on the number of people being intercepted. legallyle who are here came here and overstayed their visas. border enforcement has some resonance, but it does not address the full problems. no. 3 and 2 -- sorry, i am nervous -- we have high unemployment right now, 14.8% real unemployment, and much of that is even higher among low- skilled people and these are the people who will be hurt by this bill because the majority of people receiving amnesty are unskilled people, so they will be competing against these

illegal aliens. host: let's take that point. guest: i would love to talk about the border point that he made, actually. theare absolutely right, statistics you quoted were accurate. 40% of the people that are here illegally have overstayed their visas. investing a lot of money at the border is not going to get it done. we have to address the issue of interior enforcement as well, a point that we also make in our report, this goes back to the senate bill, they are investing a lot of money, $38 billion or something that they will be spending on the border. what does that do in terms of addressing the population of people who are overstaying? the house has gone, maybe in my opinion, too far with interior enforcement. it has been considered a step too far on interior enforcement.

but i think that will probably be negotiated more to the center if they reach a conference report but there needs to be some way to address the overstay. you can do that within eight points verification system, where we do not have that system now, you could do it with entry exit systems, tracking the people that exit. we do not do that right now and do not know if people are overstaying their visas. there are a lot of ways to enhance that technology today. host: the caller -- >> -- guest: the caller's right, it is not being handled the way it should be right now. have right now in this country is the fact that amnesty. the current situation is that the obama administration is frankly doing more deportations

now than have ever been done before. we can quibble about how you come to those numbers, but they are deporting people, it is not fair to say that people are not being deported, they are. however, there are still many people here in an undocumented status and frankly, most of them are not going anywhere. if you wipe the current system, basically you're saying that we should not be addressing reforming our laws, because you are allowing these people to be here and working within our country. the unemployment rate, this is definitely a situation where we address this the last time in 2006 and 2007. the employment rate is much higher now. in a way you are comparing apples to oranges, no pun intended, because a lot of these jobs are agriculture jobs and whether we want to admit it or

not, this will probably get me some angry callers, there are jobs that american workers will not do. governor barbara had a great example, a chicken processing plant in mississippi a couple of miles from the state penitentiary, they have a program that allows prisoners to leave and make $6 per hour processing chickens. they said they have never had a prisoner last more than two days cleaning chickens. that they would rather be in their cells in prison than work in the chicken processing plant because it is such hard, dirty, nasty work. we are seeing the same thing in arizona. picking lettuce, there are no american workers lining up to do those jobs. host of this tweet -- -- host: this tweet --

guest: if there were? oh, well, a secret about immigration, if you wanted to come to the united states and clean a hotel room or work in a service sector that is not agriculture, there is no way for you to come to this country to work. there is especially no way for you to stay. we do not have a visa category that addresses these people. while we do have an agriculture program, it is small and difficult to use and many employers do not use it. in california they say that 70% of agriculture workers are here illegally and only 4% of the total population are using the h2a visa program. the program is not functioning right now and we do not have one to address these other low- skilled categories, so there is no way for them to come legally under the current system. host: gramm, michigan, mary, go

ahead. caller: good morning, i just wanted to say several things. one, people do not understand that the obama care is directly related to what is going to happen if immigration passes. what is going to happen is americans are going to be forced to be covered by obama care, whereas the bill as it stands not belegals will covered by this, so therefore, who do you think the employer is going to employ? not the american citizen. it will be the person they do not have to give health care to. host: rebecca? guest: i am not a health-care expert, there are interesting conceits to the health care bill that foley -- i will fully admit

i do not understand. the concern has been raised that especially, well we are talking about people working off the books, which is a whole nother issue. if you are hiring someone knowing they are undocumented, you are blatantly flaunting the that needsan issue to be addressed. a lot of that comes to a point of verification systems. we need to be able to real-time know whether someone is eligible to work. so, in the country today if i come and apply for a job, i bring a copy of my driver's license and social security card, i fill out my paperwork, we mail it to the social security administration, which today is kind of crazy if you think about it. if i go and purchase something

that i need an identification for, like sudafed or alcohol, i can walk into a store and a swipe at and have all of my information and can tell if i am eligible to buy that product. why can that same technology not be transferred into the workplace? i think that that, resoundingly people agree that if we could address that problem, that that would go a long way to countering the ability for people to willfully hire undocumented. host: we have an undocumented residents from evanston. go ahead, hector. caller: thank you for taking my call. i came here with a visa and i overstated. my family is here. my kids are here. putve been struggling to them through university. has gone back to

mexico. yes, i have worked in the industry and i have brought tourists here at one time. i was somehow bringing money into the states, and i am trying , weo something here and now andot have access to credit i want to do somehow hire people and help economies. i would like to ask representatives to support the immigration bill that allows us to integrate into not only the economy, because we are already

here and already part of the united states, we want to come out and somehow come to a country in whatever way possible. host: how long have you been here? caller: 12 years already. host: why did you not go back? why did you overstay? caller: i found here in the states a better way to raise my family. parents came-- my here in 1956. i have very strong ties with family in california. my countries, mexico and the united states, i would like to be able to travel along the country and i cannot leave home,

i am afraid. host: ok, rebecca tallent? guest: this story is reminiscent of what we are talking about. here and like he came had family here, speculation, and overstayed, but he is now working here and wants to start his own business and wants to be able to hire people and, like he said, contributes to the economy. to me, that frankly is the most persuasive argument in all of this, the economic contribution. host: what will he have to do to come out of the shadows? been here for 12 years, how much in back taxes, all of that, would he have to pay? guest: a good question. there are a couple of pieces here.

obviously we do not know what the house is going to do at this point, but under the senate bill do come forward and pay an initial fine of $2,000 and then he will be on probationary status for 10 years. under the current senate bill, because it is always a complicated legislative issue, but there is not a requirement right now to pay back taxes, because there is a technical problem. that will be likely address coming out of the conference committee, the back taxes requirement. we put it in the 2007 bill and we became subject to what is called a blue slip. it is a technical problem. everyone anticipates back taxes being part of the deal. some of these folks, depending on whom he has been working for, may have already been having their taxes withheld. frankly, i would not say the

majority, but a large portion of the undocumented population are here working on someone else's number or a tax id #. they are going to the process and what employers are withholding everything we have out of our pay stubs. to approve and submit paperwork that shows that those taxes were being paid. thousandsbviously be and thousands of dollars. messaget this twitter came in -- guest: we do, it is for agriculture seasonal workers. it is incredibly bureaucratic and one of the biggest problems right now is that people that can use the program, one of the biggest problems they see is that a of their petitions are

being processed by the department of labor and not agriculture and they are finding that the department of labor process is so arduous that they are missing their picking seasons waiting for visas to be approved. it is a complicated system that requires a strict housing requirement with things like each bathroom in each house provided has to have a window. it is a very, very strict program that comes to the point where it is basically unusable. there are agricultural employers that tried very diligently to use it, but it is not adaptable enough or responsive enough to the growing season and it has been proven difficult to use. county, maryland, go ahead. caller: yes, hi, i just had one thing to say. i do not understand why people feel that, you know, they intentionally want to come here

illegally and go through all this trouble of not being able to have insurance, if it was so easy to do with the right way? that is what i am not understanding, people walked thousands and thousands of miles over the berlin -- over the border. risk dying to come here and pay lots of money. if they could pay money and get a visa in terms of legal aid, do you not think that they would do that? host: good point. we will leave it there. situationse are many where there is no category for these folks. example, has ar lot of family here. sure whether is no green card category for him.

there are categories you can get a green card through. there are categories that include siblings and adult , they are subject to a bar in the country. depending on the extent of your agreements, if you are here you legally you do not want to be subject to the bar, they have tightened the border so much at this point, people are rooting in. a lot of people believe that if we put folks into some kind of legal status, that they would freely travel back and forth.

1986, i do not think anyone is debating that. rest to the advantage of the legal status and chose to return to their home country. we would probably see similar people coming here specifically for work and maybe they do not intend to stay for forever. host: what about this story that was on the fox news website, senator jeff sessions saying that asylum requests are being abused by people coming from mexico, trying to come into the united states and they are saying if you keywords having to do with the drug situation and drug cartels.

the they are able to seek asylum in this country. guest: this comes back to when we had this on the books, people concerned that the asylum process is being abused. frankly, that is fair to say, but the situation in mexico right now is terrible and i do not think anyone within the united states can completely comprehend what it is like to live and in some of these towns. there are horrifying stories that will not recount at this , but iour on a weekday would say that there are legitimate concerns and requests coming out of mexico based on the horrifying situation is that we heard. ,or family members put at risk

there are cartels taking over whole towns, putting everyone at risk. whether it is directly or over directly from cartel violence. host: according to this story it says that these requests for asylum, he calls them of uses, should put the brakes on the immigration bill. .et's go to bob in ohio caller: thank you for taking my call. history, i spent some of my 12 years in the marine corps down in tortuga, ariz., in 1986. i work for the state department, like i said. the information command system was very important and in the

first few months we passed an amnesty bill and try to put up tractor the aliens coming across the court -- a corridor. it was part of my job in public affairs to be aware of these kinds of things with the public. the reality of the matter is over 120e are chiefs,ions with indian the agricultural workers and that type of stuff, that definition in that law with

regard sundeck -- undocumented workers, it is important that you do the right thing and move through the process. thatthere is something does not follow the process. guest: i have spent quite a bit of time at fort worth. it is nice to hear from a fellow n.izona the border security situation today is drastically different than it was in the late 1980's, you could say for better or for worse. at that point you really did have a free flow of people across the border. even though you had people freely falling, they did not experience the violence they are experiencing today. almost everyone coming across

the border was coming with someone armed and a lot of it was a result of the violence was talking about earlier. some of them were protecting themselves and it has increased violence. he was tragically killed inside the property those few years ago. you are seeing as a result of the increased security violence as well. back in the 1980's what you would see is maybe a couple of people on the south side of the border. the border control -- border patrol could not come across everyone.

how it was in the late 1980's, late 1990's. this situation is slightly different. of thee using a lot military technology that is being used in south korea to protect the did militarize its own, they are using that same kind of technology on the arizona border as well. i am trying to remember the second part of the caller's point. i should have made a note. to the it was related number of categories, the law says there is no category for illegal alien, making the point -- host: that you are breaking the law. guest: thank you, exactly.

reiterating the point i made earlier, yes, you are exactly right, there are a lot of these categories right now but i go back to the idea that there is not just want to address this specific population, the majority of what we are addressing here, the hotel workers and service industry workers, there is no category to andess them functionally the agriculture program is functionally broken. that has resulted in the situation a population that we have here today, in my opinion. host: we are talking to the immigration policy director for the immigration task force bipartisan center, rebecca tallent. they are out with a new consensus study asking both sides to come together on a consensus for reform. you can see how the phone lines are divided up.

here is a tweet for rebecca -- host: and then this one -- guest: actually, i will take the second one first, the cbo has done a study and we are with to be coming out numbers in the last month or so that will look at the economic impact of immigration reform, so keep your eye out for that. but the budget office look at thatenate bill and found before the border surge it would still be in that process and prior to the border surge amendment there would be an increase of $191 billion to

offset the deficit. sorry if that was a confusing way to say that. net positive to the country, meaning that with the additional they weree border, still looking at astronomical numbers with money being flooded into the deficit. also, though, you have to account for the fact that there is economic growth that will result from individuals, like hector, currently working off the books and not fully achieving their economic potential, it is also supporting the social infrastructure and allowing someone like that to fully expand their economic potential. immigrants overwhelmingly tend to be entrepreneurs and tend to start new jobs with new companies, bringing in new jobs. historically it has not just been latino immigrants, it was

the same throughout history. one of the things we have looked at is the impact on the housing market. the costsike to see for housing markets increased and bringing 11 million people into the legality and apply for mortgages would help us to do that, allowing for people to be here and fully invested in the economy. i think that contrary may be to what some people would instinctively think about a bill like this, part of it is the hangover from the obama care debate. and fiscally,lly those are not the same things for the country. i think that that is an important point to be making. it was a game changer in the debate when that score came out. i think there were a lot of people we anticipated it might be net neutral, but to have it

be so positive was an important point. host: naomi, go-ahead. there: i understand that are signs that the southern theyr, anyway, that say are in english, spanish, and chinese? why would chinese becoming after mexico? caller: that turned out -- guest: that turned out to be an internet rumor that turned out to be not correct. when congressman hayworth was running in the 2010 senate something that was that the congressman contended with, the fact that we had something like 30,000 chinese coming to the border every year, it turned out not to be true. it was one of those things that

caught on on the internet and spread like wildfire, but i have been there and never seen one that has chinese on it for evidence that someone from china has been crossing the border. host: john, chicago, hello. caller: it is not that i oppose the forum, but i do oppose the form suggested. it makes it so hard for them to get a job, it is virtually impossible. any employer who knowingly employ this any legal is subject to a heavy fine. about being at the end of a line for the country of origin does not form.

guest: i think a lot of people in the country a real -- agree with your feeling and i guess my concern on that is the -- let's say this is an accurate number. conservatively, let's say that 6 million of those individuals are currently employed in the economy, it would mean that the children, which is likely conservative, in these tough economic times we are experiencing, calling these people out and sending them back wherever they would come from will continue to cripple our economy and i do not think we can afford to take as individuals out of the work force right now. my next question is probably going to be about the high unemployment rate, going back to this idea that the high

unemployment rate, construction is a specific industry where this does not necessarily buy out because a lot of american workers are out of work in construction and there is definitely going to be and there will be sectors where there are not americans lined up to do those jobs in those sectors. are withinre they the agriculture and service industry. if you speak to your average restaurant owner, they are recognizing the fact that so many of their employees are immigrant workers, here is a great example, in phoenix right now they just raided a car wash. when i lived there down the street from, taking away those immigrant workers shut it down. they are rest of a lot of the managers for being implicit in

hiring, but it became clear that physically they could not run it without an immigrant worker there. it means tough economic times, calling these people of the workforce will be detrimental to recovery. host: virginia, support the idea of the immigration reform? caller: i wanted to say one thing, in a mexican american citizen now and we love this country. americans love mexico. they help the country, they pay , wes like the people here pay taxes by buying food, clothing, and whenever. all of this social

security, these factors will this is the time to fix this. they need this, this is a .hance they were together and are republicans, but are afraid to get into a because it is not easy. about theing political side effects, i guess that is inevitable. we talked about this in the beginning as well. the question of whether or not republicans can appear anti-

immigrant and how that will play out in national politics. guest: this is where you see a real divide between people running between the national level and statewide level, the majority of them are in very safe districts that have been carefully put together to basically make them safe districts and you have something like between 70 and 80 house republicans who currently have less than 10% latino voters in the district. what they are telling us is that they do not need to be sold on the politics of this because it does not apply in their home districts, they need to be sold on the project will policy. but then you are looking at presidential candidates nationally and that go up.

governor rendell was saying that the latino voting population in pennsylvania is 8%. pennsylvania is usually decided by a smaller margin than that and a republican candidate running against the democrats may not be ready by a margin. is a crazy, overwhelming wave towards the republican party. are reallylicans focused on their elections, they are focused on just their midterm elections. at are not looking national presidential election. is this the time but you need house republicans to put their individual district policies aside and try to look at international politics and good policy? when it potentially 2015,

the republicans try to take back the right -- the white house, or the senate if it is not this will it be easier to look at at that point? host: if senator marco rubio was looking at this, would it be more on the forefront of news and speculation? with their perhaps be more pressure on republicans? guest: what is interesting about him is that he is talking about it and this argument that if congress does not act, the president will act on his own and basically expand the that is action program being applied to the children of undocumented error -- undocumented immigrants. right now there is a program

that applies to them that allows them to stay in school, but it does not give them a green card, it just allows them to not be deported to stay and work. the rumbling of this, the white house has said it is not on the box, the argument that he is theng in terms of expanding program to everyone who is here illegally. borehole undocumented population. that this all kind of goes back to obama care, it really does in this case, during the immigration debate is went they decided not to force the employer mandate. well, that really made republicans uncomfortable. it was not as though they unilaterally made a decision and this was an example of the kind ,f thing that they could do

waiving these requirements at the border, putting it on the table that makes republicans very uncomfortable. base,ys very well to his that if they do not act it will be a presidential office willing to make these choices. >> this -- host: this twitter -- host: talk about the role of market zucker word of the amazon is playing in this. guest: he is dropping several millions of dollars on the cause of immigration, you would be happy to know. he and several other entrepreneurs in california have

put together an organization called former u.s.. it is not specifically aimed at immigration, but it is the 501c4, not a non-profit, inherently political, it gives money based on whether or not they support their agenda items. one item is immigration. they gave a chunk of money to the controls and senator gramm. senator gramm can use that money any way that he wants. he could use it to run as proposing health care reform and the idea is that you receive the money because he supports a different portion of the agenda with the people that they donated to using it to run ads on the pipeline and suddenly .hey spoke of environmentalists

they are still feeling their way into this whole discussion, but immigration is one of the things that marked the herbert wrote about in "the new york times" a few months ago and his experience mentoring students, , and thoseot to him high skilled workers are important to the industry as well. host: go ahead, michael. caller: i have been keeping watching the process. talking ande people they need jobs for this country, you know?

even the white house was built by immigrants. if i am not mistaken, you know? the beginning at of your comments he said you only heard people talking about it? are you frustrated with the pace? caller: we agreed, they are the ones who are not meeting in this , they know nothing about them. host: what do you say to people who say you broke the law by coming here?

caller: [indiscernible] could go back. right? [indiscernible] host: i will have to leave it there, we are running out of time. two points, one was the tradition of immigration in this country, which is important to focus on. i fear that people will there eyes and think that this is maybe an overly sympathetic way it isk at this, but

important to understand that unless you were a native american, you or your ancestors came here as immigrants. there were no immigration laws until the 1920's beef. -- 1920's. before that if you made it here, you could stay. we were in a different position than we are today. he made, ioint that think, is that he would like to feel that there is a process where people can come here, work, and go home, and right now because of the way we have secured our borders and made it tough for people to come and go across the border, which i support we should be monitoring across the border, because of this situation that we found ourselves in, unfortunately we are preventing people from leaving.

host: arlene, new york, go ahead with your thoughts. caller: i do support the immigration reform, but i would like the immigration reform to be open and broader. like, for example, i know of a situation of someone who came here as a kid legally in this country and for whatever reason they came back way law, whether it was true or not, because a theyn was not a citizen, deported this person and also barred this person from entering back into the u.s. state. now, what is this person supposed to do? he has kids. he may never see them again. it is not as though he did something. even at this stage he is so

challenging in this situation. ofst: this gets at the issue what we were discussing. i do not know what the circumstances are, if he was deported on immigration grounds or if there was reference to a crime being committed that was still in the process of being adjudicated, but there are different degrees and different ways that people are banned from re-entering the country. there is a three-year and 10 the lobbydepending on committed, but there are also lifetime bans. if you are stopped on the side of the road, in arizona specifically, and they check status and askn if you are a citizen and you say yes, by itself if you go to the

court and being deported, that subject to to a lifetime ban, making a claim of false citizenship. frankly, i will be honest, the addressing of the lifting of a lifetime bars are not part of this discussion. areink that people satisfied with the idea that if you -- i say people, but there are things being addressed here and things not being addressed here. i am sure the caller would like to see reapplication of his lifetime ban. i think that right now we need to talk about this and these big issues and maybe we can start rolling down on these issues. ,ost: rebecca tallent immigration policy director at the bipartisan immigration

center for policy. thank you very much for being with us. guest: thank you very much for having me. host: we will be right back after this news update from c- span radio. >> new york times reports that the son of joe biden, beau biden, has been admitted to a hospital after what has been reported as an episode of disorientation and weakness, a toy gun to say that this morning the vice president accompanied his son to houston, texas, where he is being evaluated. in 2010 he suffered what was said at the time to be a minor stroke with doctors saying he was neurologically mark -- nor logic in normal. aides say that the vice president plans to keep his appearance in scranton, pa., later this week, and c-span will be covering the president on his bus tour through scranton.

in yesterday's briefing the press secretary confirmed that the heads up was given to the white house before -- before brent -- before glenn greenwald was the -- was detained on sunday. journalist glenn greenwald has publish stories about u.s. and british surveillance programs based on documents leaked by edward snowden. turning to the situation in egypt, security officials in state television said that the supreme leader of the muslim brotherhood has been detained, captured earlier today in eastern cairo, where supporters of the ought -- ousted president for holding -- the ousted president were holding a protest that was clear by security forces last wednesday. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio.

[video clip]journ >> over the last few years we have been labeled by the left- wing media insufficient for debate. >> he will take your comments live. in the months ahead, october 6, john lewis. november 3, from jackie o. to nancy reagan, over to sinatra, your questions for kitty kelley. december 1, christina sommers. january 5, radio talk-show host and judicial activist, marc levin, in death every sunday of the month on both tv on c-span 2. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are back and we are going to open up the phone lines for the next 20 minutes.

unfortunately we were having technical issues with the studio in houston, so john hofmeister, former president of john -- of shell oil, who was supposed to be our guest, unfortunately we cannot have him on. we will try to reschedule for that again. for those of you who have been calling in so far, we have talked about egypt and the president temporarily suspending military aid for that country. any public policy issue that you would like to address is on the table. republicans, -- for republicans, 202-585-3881. for democrats, 202-585-3880. for independents, 202-585-3882. you can send us a tweet, twitter.com/c-spanwj, or post your comments on facebook, or e- mail your comments as well. earlier we told you that the senior correspondent for the

daily beast broke this story. his source is senator patrick they, who heads up subcommittee that seas -- oversees the money for suspending military aid to egypt. officials have said they have not made a decision yet. on wednesday the european union has an emergency session. have theseu headlines in the paper -- host: "wall street journal" has

this one. closest middle east allies are undercutting american policy in egypt, u.s. and arab officials said. parallel efforts by israel, saudi arabia, and the united arab emirates have blended u.s. influence with egypt's military leadership." "the wall street journal," if you are interested in reading that. the new yorkf " times" -- excuse me, inside "the presidentet journal," " obama pressuring regulators to implement the dodd frank relation bill -- regulation bill." " some tasks remain unfinished, including the so-called volcker rule, requiring banks to retain

some of the mortgage securities they sell to investors." more of that in "the wall street journal" and other papers this morning. a story on climate change -- "climate panel sites near certainty on warming." that is the story on the front page of "the new york times." wayne in maryland, democratic caller bankrate with all of that on the table, what are your thoughts? caller: good morning. my thoughts on the issue about the money going to the egypt military -- we should support not support do democracy's way. whether you agree with something or not, the people voted for president who happens to be a muslim brotherhood guided if they do not like a person, they they should --

follow, would you color, the democratized way of doing things. --should not follow people support people who do not follow the way of democracy. it creates violence and panic and sets a president -- precedent that you can be rewarded if you are lawless. i do not think we should support lawless countries. host: what do you think, brenda? caller: i am talking about immigration reform. people that are for it have no idea, unless they live in a border state, because all they do is cost us money. inr $10 billion a year california. educationigure in the of children, and incarceration because they commit major crimes

, not just being here illegally -- they don't throw them in jail for that, heavens no. anybody who thinks that this is a good idea, why don't we just abolish immigration laws? host: ok, brenda, gary on twitter says host: travis in south carolina, republican caller. caller: host i am with of womant just called in. i own a business, and i won't say what it is, but i've lost a lot of white contractors because they have quit altogether -- white and black -- they cannot keep up with paying work men's comp, insurance, and the mexicans are coming over here with no insurance, no nothing, getting jobs, and on top of that, the big companies

are requiring americans to have workman's, on their employees, but the mexicans don't, because they get free medical if they do get hurt. we are having to pay for all this medical we are getting and they want reform, healthcare, and all they are doing is putting burden on us while they still get free medicare, everything. host: hey, travis, can i ask you about south carolina politics? the front page of "the state" courtesy of the newseum as this headline. "graham, not scott, attracting senate opponents." why is that? caller: i can't answer that. host: are you going to vote for the instagram? -- four lindsey graham? caller: i won't. he is a democrat in republican

clothing. host: how about tim scott? caller: he's got his own troubles. host: this comment on twitter oh, i readyr 1 -- read that one. dominick, republican caller. caller: good morning. i had a quick comment on the egypt situation. we need to be very, very clear. sameason we cannot at the time condemn any kind of religious government, anyplace in the world, and also condemn the violence of the military. we seem to be so timid and afraid to hurt anybody's feelings. we've got to stand up for what we believe and be clear. that is what this ministration -- administration is not doing. on the immigration thing, just quickly, the biggest problem is

that once they started saying that the immigration system is broke, that is when we lost it, because most people don't know what the immigration system is. what's broke is the enforcement of people coming across the border illegally. immigration system is a different thing. you can tweak it and change it and improve it, but that -- the 2 got so mixed up together that we will never solve it. host: this about oil and gas subsidies. host: front page of "the washington times" has a couple stories about terrorism. one headline here -- "propagandist calls for killing of u.s. envoys." " american rallies terrorists committee chaos." "adam gadahn has released an audio message calling for the

assassinations of u.s. to commence across the middle east, highlighting the deteriorating security situation in the region as postrevolutionary chaos tightens its grip on libya. the message was released as the u.s. embassy in yemen and lahore, pakistan remained closed on monday, the result of terrorism warnings." next that is a story about syria. " al qaeda rat line turns against assad." assad's strategy has come back to bite him. assad allowed al qaeda operatives to set up a rat line to his country and into northeastern iraq. hundreds of young terrorists to keep the flights occupation off balance by helping al qaeda kill americans. his move also enabled al qaeda

to set up a logistics foothold in syria that is being used against him. front no set of movement and arms inside syria to the point where they have become the most deadly group among the hodgepodge of groups." what is on your mind? caller: good morning. i have a few issues among this immigration issue. number one, i wanted to call in and talk about the fact that we don't think about what happens to americans when immigrants come over and work under someone else's social security number. the irs causes all types of trouble. it looks as if we americans have another job. my husband went through that. secondly, i see people work and just hold the lines of the grocery stores sending funds back over to mexico. i don't think that is right. one more thing.

she talked about -- your last guest -- she talked about the fact that if we remove these people from our work system, it would wreak havoc on our economic system. i don't think so, because teenagers don't have jobs they used to have, and they -- i'm not saying deport them, but i am saying we need to have a legal system, because it is not better to criminalize americans who break the laws and put them in trial -- put them in jail and these people coming here and it is no trouble. host: on twitter host: we will be talking about the city of detroit with the codirectors of the recent ropia" in aboutt five minutes. hi, george. caller: good morning. i think that we've lost all of our common sense.

we are carrying all of these idols around, and the stadium is burning behind us and around us, and we are worshiping all these people, be it big business, and the pyramid scheme always collapses, but who is actually winning? the people are the worst of the worst feeding off of the people who don't have common sense to judge them and not give them all the money, all the environment, all the oil, going to kings of saudi arabia that we do business with or kill iranians in cruise that we do behind the scenes. this sad, what we are doing to this world, and the reset button might be a big red nuclear button, but it has got to be hit sooner or later, and i don't want it to be, but we have a big world of hurt coming because we don't have any brains left. host: returning to the front page of "the washington times," a story on ted cruz, republican senator from texas.

he released his birth certificate to the "dallas morning news," showing that he was born in 1970 in canada to an american mother, giving him and 80 and and u.s. citizenship it -- giving him a canadian and the. citizenship. " washington post" reported that he would renounce his canadian citizenship. on the front page of "usa today," of sign-ups outstrip estimates. exchanges to help the uninsured a .5coverage showed that million will use the exchanges to buy insurance -- 8.5 million will use the exchanges to buy insurance, and that would far outstrip the federal government's estimate of 7 million new customers." nation'sg the borrowing limit, "the financial

times" says "republicans urged to defend cuts." " a group linked to industrialist david koch is urging republicans to take a hard-line to preserve the spending cuts of 1.2 trillion dollars over 10 billion -- over 10 years or face lasting repercussions." bob, republican caller. hi, bob, what are your thoughts? hostcaller: i was calling regarg reform. i have posted reform act. the only thing i wish the u.s. government would do would be to enforce existing laws. that is our biggest problem. all of these activist groups and everybody else, if we would just devote our time to enforce our laws and create these problems that we are having -- that create these problems we are having throughout the united states, especially in southern california -- we are having so many illegals coming right across the line, going to

colleges, getting grants. that is not right. it is not right at all. a lot of them -- right now with a check into the apartment complex -- if they check into the apartment complexes out there, they have families ready to move in, because they are waiting for this reform to come in and they know they could qualify for money for the rental and for food, and that is not right. host: we often ask you are you in news and how you get your news. there will be another source. a full-page ad taken out in today's newspapers, "the new york times," "the wall street journal." al jazeera america. full-page ads running in a lot of the national papers this morning. vienna,go to nathan

virginia, democratic caller. caller: i just wanted to address, like a broken record, the immigration reform debate. i think people don't really appreciate the fact that whether or not you agree in principle with illegal immigrants being granted full citizenship status and their reforms, the uncomfortable truth is that illegal immigrants comprise a inessary part of the cog the wheel of the american economy. agriculture, construction, these sections of our economy would collapse. for the past 25 years, these sectors of the economy have developed and grown in large part on the backs of illegal immigration. once again, whether or not in principle you agree with the idea of illegal immigrants being granted full citizenship status, it doesn't change the fact that these men, these women, and yes, indeed, these children form an integral part of our economy,

and that is the truth that the american public has to confront. ourout these people, economy would be significantly different, in my opinion, in a significant way worse way than it is today. newspaper isll" out with their list of the richest people in congress. if you go to thehill.com, you can see that congressman issa tops the list, along with michael mccaul, chairman of the homeland security committee, and senator warner as well. to $355fortune raises million in 2012." ollie, you are next. caller: this is about immigration. why does a sovereign nation is obligated to protect illegals who knowingly enter the country with children, attain food stamps, housing, potentially domestic and federal government

-- where is it in the constitution states that we as a nation, a sovereign nation, must protect those who are in a sovereign nation in legally? in regard to your last caller about the benefits of illegals being in this country, if americans who have -- the haves stop wanting more and start trickling down benefits, you ain't got to give it all, but just give a little bit, especially to the head start programs, we can eliminate certain deficiencies in how --on and in terms of making people productive in our country, and we won't have to depends much on outsiders beckoning them for services. we will grow our own service. whatve the potential to be the founding fathers wrote in the constitution.

thank you very much. host: eric, frederick, maryland, republican caller. caller: hello. host: you are on the air. caller: yes, ok. there is a court decision, federal court decision, that was rendered last week that is not getting a lot of press. it dealt with obamacare. host: ok. caller: the judge rejected eric theer's motion to dismiss attorney general of oklahoma's lawsuit against obamacare. the lawsuit was based upon the fact that the law only provides subsidies to people under state- created exchanges. the irs issued an unauthorized regulation to allow subsidies to be paid to people in the 34 states that have refused a state-established exchange. if that case goes forward and it

is successful on the merits, they will totally discombobulate obamacare because people who do not receive subsidies will therefore not have affordable care, and since they don't have affordable care, they won't have to pay a penalty, and if they don't have to pay a penalty, neither will employers. i recommend all citizens of the country have their states file copycat lawsuits. host: all right, we are on open phones this morning. some other headlines. "the washington times" reports that "group's to fight new jersey ban on gay conversion therapy." " governor chris christie signed into law a bill making new jersey the second state to ban gay conversion therapy." in oklahoma, judge blocks the morning after pill. "houston chronicle" front page

courtesy of the newseum. " taxpayers have paid $4 million for lawsuits filed by the attorney general in that state against the federal government." mary lou, new jersey, independent caller. caller: hello, greta, how are you today? host: good to talk to you. caller: thank you for c-span. i want to address the immigration issue. but the people should be doing is calling you, steeple and your 2 senators -- calling your, steeple and your two senators that you do not want any immigration bill brought to the fourth this year. they may well pass a strong border security bill and the house, but then what will happen is it will go to the conference in the senate, and the minute that happens, it will come out as an amnesty bill. eric cantor is already bashing the bill for the dreamers.

this is addressed to all the people out there who have kids going to college. these dreamers are taking up slots your kids should have. they are getting scholarships your kids should have. when they come out, they will get the best jobs that your kids should have. if you have any concerns about this, get on the phones, send your e-mails, and say new immigration bill this year. -- no immigration bill this year. host: coming up, we will turn our attention to detroit with to fill makers of her recent documentary about the city -- 2 fill makers of a recent document rare by the city. right after this news update from c-span radio. negotiators for israelis and palestinians are meeting today for a second round of peace talks. the first run was held in secret last week in jerusalem, and officials are not saying where today's talks are being held. both sides have promised secretary of state john kerry

not to discuss details with the media. secretary kerry brought the sides to the table after a five- year freeze in negotiations. officialspakistan -- say former pakistani army chief pervez musharraf has been charged in the 2007 assassination of former prime minister benazir bhutto. the decision by the court marks the first time musharraf or any former army chief and pakistan has been charged with a crime. turning to u.s. politics, tennessee state representative he will challenge incumbent senator lamar alexander for the republican nomination for that tendency -- at senate seat next year, aandoning his bid to oust crime has been in that district. the cumbersome is considered vulnerable -- oust a congressman in that district. they compos mentis considered vulnerable -- the congress man is considered vulnerable

because of infidelity. those are the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> c-span -- we bring public affairs events from washington directly to you, putting you in the room at congressional hearings, white house events, briefings and congr -- conferences, offering complete gavel-to-gavel coverage of the u.s. house, all as a public service of private industry. c-span, created by the cable tv industry 34 years ago, funded by your local cable or satellite provider. now you can watch us in hd. >> in the last few years, the left a has decided the political debate is worthless. they are not going to debate policy, not going to debate the best way to solve the nation's problems, not going to provide evidence. they are going to label us morally deficient human beings unworthy of debate. shapirobart.com's ben will take your calls starting at noon, september 1.

on october 6, civil rights leader john lewis. on november 3, your questions for kitty kelly. and then on december 1, christina hoff summers. on january 5, radio talkshow host mark levin. spandepth," on booktv on c- two. >> "washington journal" continues. joining us from new york are the codirectors of her recent documentary on detroit called "detropia," heidi ewing and rachel grady. rachel, let me begin with you and why you decided to make this documentary. guest: well, besides the fact that heidi is from the area and it is near and dear to her heart

, we have had many conversations about what had happened and what was happening to this epic place in america. the stories were starting to spring. we were reading them constantly, that there was this story happening in detroit, that new business was coming and that artists were coming and there was this train -- this change that was imminent. we thought that we wanted to capture this positive story about detroit. we wanted to hear how it was impacting people on the ground. in 2010, we started filming. we filmed for one year. and we discovered a story that was much more complex than that. host: and that is why you called it "detropia"? why the title? guest: "detropia."

host: sorry. guest: that's ok. it is an invented word. we thought it was something that could be left up to the viewer -- utopia, dystopia. what did detroit signify to the world and to this country? it is a question to the audience, almost. what are we watching here? host: heidi ewing, you started filming, and rachel talked about this a little bit, but what did this documentary end up being? guest: as a documentary filmmaker, you get used to your story off and changing. we went to detroit with one idea and we found that instead of the story of a city that was on the rise and in the process of transformation, we found sort of a bigger story about the decline of industrialized america, and

sort of a country that -- at a crossroads of deciding where it was going to go. we found a city that represents a dying middle-class, a city that represents the roads taken, the auto industry taking its own road and the people taking another. we found a much more national narrative. we decided after going back and forth and spending over a year in the city to focus on residents of detroit that could leave but have chosen to stay. there has been a mass exodus out of the city in the last 50 years. we were interested in those people that, for whatever reason, felt the city needed them and they needed to stick with detroit, and that ended up becoming a chorus of voices that make up "detropia." host: i want to show our viewers a little bit of the trailer for

this documentary and then we will come back and talk about how with relates to detroit. [video clip] >> these are houses that are never coming back. going back to the prairie, these houses disappearing from the landscape. >> i want to show you something. all this is empty. they are building a new plant in mexico and taking all the work to mexico. >> the guys making $14.35, their new proposal is $11 an hour, so they would lose $2.35 an hour. >> what do you think of going into work? >> one of the big hot button issues in detroit is the layout of the city. there are questions that parts of the city may be shrunk. >> i don't know if you understand this, they are shutting down schools, they are shutting down futures. >> we are not going to accept

anymore downsizing. we want to hear about big- sizing, super sizing detroit. >> the city is broke. i don't know how money times i have to say that. host: let me go to heidi ewing on this. you hear the mayor at the end there in your documentary saying, "the city is broke, i don't know how many times i have to say that." the headlines most recently from detroit is they are bankrupt and are filing for it. guest: it was definitely not a surprise to us or any resident of detroit. the mayor has been saying that for a long time, and people who live in detroit feel he broke -- the brokeness of the city on a day-to-day basis with the lack of services and other factors that make the city a difficult place to live. host: rachel grady, what was your reaction when you heard that the city was going to be filing for bankruptcy? thought -- as i

said, we were filming throughout 2010 and into 2011. you know, we weren't surprised that all. it was something we were kind of waiting for treat it seemed imminent -- it was something we were kind of waiting for. it seemed imminent. he did not seem like something that was avoidable. they were massively in debt and that no tax base, and there was no sign it was going to change. if you just do the math, it did not seem like it was avoidable. we weren't surprised. what was interesting to us is that other people seem to surprised. -- i thinkis because there is almost a myth that the back.as about to come in fact, after we made our film and were showing our film

around, people kept asking us, "i think you missed something. i heard to detroit was having a comeback." it was sort of -- people were able to accept that this is extremely grave. we weren't surprised, but we were sort of surprised that other people were surprised. host: where to that storyline come from about detroit making its way back, rachel grady, and what did the people in detroit say about that? guest: well, we were actually the whole time calling it "the new york times" version of detroit. we live in new york come and we had read the stories that seemed to be popping up every couple months about this new store opening in this interesting come and ofive tech company, course everyone wants to believe

that. detroit is mythical for americans. it symbolizes innovation, it symbolizes american might, it symbolizes all of these things that are very much interwoven in the fiber of our thoughts and our vision of ourselves. i think it is very hard for people to swallow the bitter pill. but detroiters have been living with it. they have been living with a city that is getting more and more dangerous -- but the quality of life is going down, that schools are unacceptable, etc. i think detroiters were not surprised. i think they are heartbroken, but i think some of them i feel like this is a way out, that there hasn't been a way out of this problem and this perhaps is a way out. host: we are talking with the codirectors of a new

documentary, "detropia," joining us from new york, heidi ewing and rachel grady. they will take your calls about the documentary and the city of detroit. host: we also want to hear from the residents of detroit so we have a fourth line for all of you. host: heidi ewing, before i get to the first phone call, do you keep in contact with the people you featured in the documentary? what do you think the impact of bankruptcy will have on them? guest: oh, yes, we keep in touch with all the subjects of the film on a regular basis. it depends. is a little confusion and concern, and there is a great unknown happening right now, because we have never seen a municipal bankruptcy of this size in the united states. this is the largest. there is a lot of -- this is

going to set a lot of pre cedent. i think that the idea that municipal bondholders will not be paid what they had invested is a big concern to people. i think the idea that the water department, the lighting department, transportation, all of this could be sort of taken out of the hands of the city, to some it is a relief, to others it is a scary, scary idea. there are just too many question marks right now. the people we have spoken to are more in a sort of wait and see mentality. how they will be affected is not known at this time. they are all a little bit on edge. host: headlines in the paper this morning about the bankruptcy in detroit. this is from the "financial times." biggest pension

funds were expected to file objections to the latest bankruptcy, and the latest twist in a difficult path the city must tread to emerge from its $18 million -- its 18 billion dollar debt burden." does one of you have a response to this objection from the pension fund? guest: oh, well, that's not that surprising. they're not going to go down without a fight. the idea that you have firefighters and police officers who have served their time and done their job, knowing that one day they will get a pension that is coming to them, the idea that that would just go up in smoke is absolutely unheard of. i am not surprised at all to hear that it is going to court. i think you will see a lot more legal battles in the upcoming months to rate these are not think that americans are going to take lightly, the idea that one thing was guaranteed -- as basic as a pension for a police officer. ofhink you will see a myriad

legal challenges coming in the next few months. host: we will go to tommy, first phone call, massachusetts, republican line. caller: hi, i love c-span. detroit i've been to many times. it should be leveled and made a huge marijuana dispensary -- host: all right, we will move on. guest: it might be. host: why do you say that, rachel grady? in multileveled? -- it might be leveled? guest: no, the marijuana park, because we saw several people growing. people were getting growers' licenses while we were there. host: we will move onto joseph, independent caller. caller: i just had to move from detroit recently. there is a stigma about detroit, and they are some of the hardest working people i've met in my

life. i've moved to nashville to attend college. detroit has had a lot of corruption through history, and that is what kept a lot of the politicians, detroit mayors being arrested for various things. there is a lot of abandoned houses there, and maybe they should be wrecked, and to improve detroit's image, you have to clean up the garbage to begin with. i'm not necessarily against the bankruptcy. it is better than being in debt all the time. what i am worried about with no solution is all these poor city workers who might lose their pension. it has to be saved. that is all i really have to say. it is not an easy answer, but i think that houses should be wrecked, they should be leveled and that way when people come to detroit they are not seeing this trash and stigma. in order for jobs to come in,

they have to offer these factories and other employers and that way they can be competitive against markets like nashville and other states. that is all i have to say. host: rachel grady, what you take that first -- why don't you take that first? guest: as far as the pensions go, i agree that -- i think that would be a real nail in the coffin in terms of the end of the american dream. they are so intertwined. this is something that would last 50, 60, 70 years, guaranteed to americans, especially in civil service. i know that pensions in a lot of ways are being phased out, but it is not something that companies offer their employees anymore. it is becoming more and more rare. but there is something -- it would be so incredibly demoralizing for americans to see that happen, even if they

are not owed a pension. as far as the leveling of the houses, etc., it is something that was on the table and i sort of see as inevitable. there was talk of consolidating the citizens who are left in the city, actually moving people so that there was shared resources, people living on the same grid. it is so spread out now, so sparse, and the abandonment of the city has not happened in an organized way. it has happened in little pockets. in terms of getting rid of the areht, inevitably people going to have to come together because all of their services are going to disappear. whether it is organized or not organized, it is something that is unavoidable. host: heidi ewing, before you respond, here is a tweet from gary.

guest: you want me to respond to that? host: yeah, and what you heard from the previous caller as well. guest: it is important to point out that the mayor has been raising houses and blight for years, thousands and thousands of homes and abandoned structures have come down. there are certain people who dan gilbert, like for example, that are buying up empty skyscrapers and trying to wring business to the -- bring business to the city to my there are tech companies that have come in, and it should be said, there are people that have stuck with the city and are trying to bring business to the city, and the artists continue to come, and the young people. detroit right now is a tale of two cities. on one and the, massive bankruptcy and blight and inability to cover basic services. but there is also this tiny group of people that believe that the city can come back and

can be a place for innovation and businesses. i wanted to throw that out there. -- irms of the twitter forgot what the twitter person said, actually. host: let me put it back up. guest: well, i will tell you something, actually, there is a higher city tax, a tax to live in the city of detroit, so it is more expensive tax wise in many ways to live in the city of detroit than to live in the suburbs six or seven miles away that has a higher quality of life. that should be addressed. the idea of making tax incentives for businesses to come to detroit -- i don't think that is a bad idea, actually. a lot of other cities and states have done that, and i think that michigan should consider that, making it more attractive for

businesses. there is a lot of people in the area who have technical backgrounds, who are engineers, and have great ideas. detroit is on the water. there is a lot of things to recommend detroit. there is a lot of space that could be inhabited. i think that having a very strong business approach and offering incentives for people to come to detroit is a good idea. host: we are talking to the codirectors of "detropia," a new documentary about the city of detroit. latest news from that city, they have filed bankruptcy. that message is part of their documentary. steve, democratic caller. caller: good morning, and thank you for c-span. my question, ma'am, is might not many if not most cities suffer falling same kind of apart, if you will, if half the population left for whatever

reason? i mean, if you lost half your income, which is how the city gets its taxes, doesn't it make everything more expensive and kind of undoable after it gets to a certain extent? guest: absolutely. guest: yes. guest: and there are other cities that have occurred bankruptcy. detroit is not the only city in america that has -- that is on its knees like this. i think a lot of people are going to be looking at detroit, however, because the thing about detroit always boils down to scale. detroit does not have any problem that is 100% unique to detroit. however, it has a scale that is unprecedented, as well as -- it seems to have all of the problems, not just one or two. in the case of like a birmingham or the county that has declared a see their -- that has declared

bankruptcy there, it is because of a specific bad investment, a municipal job that went awry and they lost billions of dollars. detroit is really tied to attention problems, and that is unique -- detroit is really tied to its pension problems, and that is unique, and especially scary to americans. as heidi and i discussed many times, this is either a cautionary tale or a blueprint for other cities. we have to wait and watch. there is all of these unknowns happening right now. detroit is certainly not completely unique in its issues. guest: just to follow-up on that, in terms of scale, the second-largest accuracy, jefferson county -- second-

largest bankruptcy, jefferson county, alabama, that was long- term by police, $4.5 billion. are $20s liabilities billion-plus. it comes down to scale. host: rachel grady, you want to take that? guest: this was a fact that i was devastated, when we were there and filming. the schools are broken, beyond broken. , andlmed in some of them the adults are totally demoralized, the kids seem like they are in an institution. there is no learning going on. we filmed in other schools another rough cities, and this was just mind blowing. that has a terrible ripple effect, of course, in terms of

employability. if there were jobs to come to , are the people they are trained and primed to take these jobs? it is one of those things in terms of detroit coming back, potentially a nonstarter if the schools are not improved because you have a population that is not getting the education that they deserve and that they need in order to function. the functionally illiterate fact, almost 15% -- i think that is almost as important as the fact that there is no jobs there. i think they go hand-in-hand. they both need to exist on a different level in order for it to work. host: heidi ewing, there has been criticism of the documentary. witht's wrong

'detropia'is that it deviates the issue of race as a document a city that has been defined in nearly destroyed by racial bigotry, writes, segregation, and prejudiced." read that criticism. you cannot boil detroit's problems only to race. it does deserve a much larger conversation. there could be entire film made about the racial issues in detroit, and there could be another film looking at political corruption and the long parade of mayoral problems in detroit. or 11- deserves a 10- or 20-part series. we do touch upon the race riots in the film, but for us, the problems in detroit cannot be boiled just that. a lot of cities suffer from segregation or racial divide, including chicago and newark. that is not unique, unfortunately, to american urban centers.

detroit, really, you have to discuss a lot of other issues, including the rise and fall of the auto industry, and globalization, and the exporting of jobs. we touch upon a lot of those things. i have to say that any viewer who sees this film, there is a racial subtext am of course -- there is a racial subtext, of course. it is not hard to look at all the newcomers to the city, most of them are white americans with a lot more resources than the locals have. there are moments of tension in the film where the viewer recognizes that. we took a more subtle approach to the racial issue, not at all avoiding it on purpose. host: carl, michigan, independent caller. i was born in6, detroit, i lived in detroit for a long time and then i moved to grosse pointe. the real problem with detroit is

the media. the media for 50 years lied about what was going on in detroit. they have lied about so many things, about the union contracts, the lack of effort in the auto companies, where they were getting paid a lot of money and not doing a very good job, section eight housing came into detroit, where one man is so heg one job, 2 jobs can't be in a nice home and his wife can stay home with the children and the next thing he knows there is somebody next door to him and has no idea about response ability, distorts the neighborhood, and the neighborhood i was born in is pathetic, just pathetic. my point is that the media was not telling the people what was going on, and they're still not telling. we have had 20 years of coleman young, and admitted socialist, and it was over when he got in. host: all right, carl. heidi ewing, let me go back to you on this one.

guest: i mean, there is been so much corruption, so much incompetence at the municipal level in detroit. i understand the caller's frustration, especially when you see any permit you grew up in be totally decimated. also -- i neighborhood you grew up in be totally decimated. also, my father is from detroit in his neighborhood is unrecognizable now. a lot of people dropped the ball when it comes to detroit. the silver lining, if there is one, is that i think there is no more balls to be dropped anymore in detroit. you have it almost in receivership, you have the emergency manager there. all eyes are on detroit, the international media is focusing on detroit. everyone is looking under every nothing cranny to find what the story is and what went wrong. there is going to be in a lot of dirty laundry aired in detroit and i hope there is some cleanup

factor that comes out of this and that the city has bottomed out and can now rise. a lot of people hope that. host: rachel grady, here is a tweet. guest: if the city did or if the workers did? host: the workers, anyone. guest: well come i think, in general not just the city workers, but also employers of the rest of the people there, i think all of them sort of took for granted that there was going ,o be a status quo in detroit in terms of the sustainability , that it was going to keep running like it was in 1950s.

i see this a lot in detroit. it was very much thinking about the moment. you know, from the pensions to the way the city is designed, all of the things in detroit that are clashing now, they were not designed to live in the future or to move on. i think that the pensions are part of it, but they made it an assumption that there was going to be a certain tax base and a certain amount of people were going to be employed by this company, and those companies were going to support people in order for the civil servants to have good paying jobs. there was a domino effect of people just a sickly short-term thinking and not -- just basically short-term thinking and not realizing that cities have to affect ability -- have to have flexibility. detroit sort of bottomed out

when these assumptions became untrue. host: richard is next, minneapolis, republican caller. caller: good morning. just a programming note, it seems like you never read e- mails anymore. getting onto the subject, i think the problem with the detroit and other cities is most of them are run by democrats, these cities that are in trouble. here in minneapolis, the property taxes are double or triple the suburbs. the city-run water and garbage are three times the cost of other cities and suburbs. in minneapolis, the city couldn't run the library and they had to give it to the county. and now they want to take over the electric utility and the gas utility, which would cost billions of billions. this is the kind of thinking you get in the city council and the mayor's in these cities. they don't think.

they are set with spending and giving away with everything, too much spending and no accountability. that is my comment. host: ok. rachel grady? guest: you know, i really don't know the data on all the cities and america -- all the cities in america or counties in america that are having problems right now, who is running it and democrats, republicans. at this point, especially for a city like detroit, that is irrelevant. there is hundreds of thousands of people that are living in detroit that their quality of life is in the toilet. sure, that might be true. i have no idea, i don't know the data, as i said, but i think that ship has sailed. if we are looking at a city like detroit, we should look in the future and, you know, move on. host: rachel grady and heidi

ewing, what are your oppressions of the current mayor there, mayor bing? bing might not be the most charismatic leader that detroit has ever had, but he was not corrupt, and his heart is in the right place. he can be trusted to not steal from the city coffers. i think he made a valiant effort. -- it wastoo little too little, too late. you cannot expect the sky to show up and just wave a wand and clean everything up. consolidation lands to make this vast tract of land into a more livable place by encouraging people to move, which, of course, wasn't realistic because people are not going to get a leave their houses unless there is a financial incentive, and there was no money to do so. and a lot of monies -- and a lot

of ways, the mayor's hands were tied. people talk about him being a lackluster leader, and that might be true, but a flashy smile was not going to save detroit, either. i wish the next mayor -- the election is coming up soon -- a lot of luck. i'm not sure what kind of powers the mayor will have, considering the emergency manager in place right now. he has another routine months of his term, kevyn orr, the financial manager. host: jim, democratic caller . caller: i was born in detroit seven years ago. -- 70 years ago. i hear the calls like the guy who said they are giving away everything. i think detroit is paying the , thatof racial prejudice

black people are always second- class. old white guy.- to a years old i went back quarter in detroit where i would see the top of, what was it, the chrysler building. anyway, i think it is just -- i think the problem of detroit is that america has never dealt with the racial prejudice that blacks have had to endure. that is what happened in detroit. actually, detroit has had several waves of racial conflict. i think it started probably with the great migration, black

people coming up from the south and taking these new industrial jobs, and sort of breaking into the middle class. i think that it has a legacy. as we have been saying, it is not so much that these things don't happen in other cities. there has been white flight in other cities. but there is the scale, the deep hole that has been dogged in this place in terms of the racial divide, and the suburbs, which are primarily white, their unwillingness to support the city, which they do use for its art. they say they are from detroit, and there is a relationship there, but i think that this racial divide has been going on since the 1930s. it is a deep, deep scar. host: heidi ewing, can i get this tweet in for you?

guest: what is being discussed right now, what they can and will collect on, that is what we are talking about, that is what is in the balance. the sports teams do make a lot of money for detroit, and there's talk of a new stadium being built. it is a big sports town. i'm not sure how that figures into the financial future of detroit and debts paid. i don't know if the hockey team should be responsible to pay for long-term debt that detroit has accrued, so i wouldn't really sign up for that. but what is interesting is a lot of things are on the table that you wouldn't think would be on the table. kevyn orr, the emergency manager, has asked for an assessment of the art collection , an amazing collection of important artwork.

they have been asked to submit the value of each and every artwork. for that to even be on the table as a possible asset to be sold in order to pay back his debt, unheard of, and that is a possibility that i actually thought a few months ago was out of the question. but it seems like everything is on the table right now, so we will have to keep our eyes out and see how that gets paid back. host: we have a minute left here. can i ask both of you, what is next for detroit, in your opinion? heidi, i will go back to you. guest: that is anyone's guess. some things are about to change in detroit. the can has been kicked up and down the road for 50 years, and the day has come, the day of reckoning has come for detroit. pensions may go away, art collections may be sold. also, a new day for detroit might be coming.

i think people might understand that there are opportunities, there is opportunity where there is chaos, where there is despair, and americans have surprises in the past with what they can do with a place that has been left for dead. it will be interesting to see what starts anew in detroit, because when something dies, something new does start. i do hope that there is some sort of slow rebirth that comes out of this absolute devastation. host: rachel grady? guest: i would say the answer to that is unclear. however, we keep hearing people say detroit has since appeared. there are 700,000 people living there. it seems like they are there to stay.